The "talk" has been mentioned and delayed several times now, but today, as I was rushing to get dressed for my therapy appointment, Mrs. L asked if we could discuss a few things. Helpfully, she provided notes to take with me to my session. As always, some highlights.
As I predicted, saying that I decided to act first and ask forgiveness regarding leg hair is being played for all it's worth. Her therapist thought this sounded like the tactic of an abuser: "I'm sorry I hit you. I couldn't control myself. Please forgive me."
Written quote: "I am enabling your bad behavior by continually putting up with the way I am treated." You just keep upping the ante, she says. "Where will it stop? Will I continually be told that you have to act in a new way (some other change) and you'll ask for my forgiveness later (over and over again)?"
She did get one thing right. I am not acting as a member of the family. The only time I get to be myself even minimally is late at night, and making myself go to bed just keeps getting harder. I am disengaging, not getting enough sleep, and not readily volunteering around the house. Sounds a bit like clinical depression, no?
She wants to know where I think she should draw the line. What is the point where she should quit caring and give up?
So, my therapist and I discussed all this. She got a little pissed off about me being compared to an abuser. So did I, incidentally. We don't buy the enabling hypothesis. We talked a lot about the family issue. It's legit. I'm not participating. Love the kids, but not keen on helping their mother right now. I have to work on this, as it's not fair to the kids.
I think a lot of my strong feelings on the leg hair topic come from control issues in the marriage dynamic. My opinion has never carried as much weight as hers, on finances, schooling, etc. My legs were something I could control. She doesn't like having control taken away from her. Hence, butting heads.
It was decided that rather than address the items she brought up (again), I should make my own list of things that are making me unhappy. Not feeling like an equal member of the family. Not feeling heard. My contributions being taken for granted. Always feeling like I'm on the defensive.
I may suggest that we need to clarify our roles in the household and in the marriage. Truly, a fresh start is the only option that has much hope of succeeding now.
Thanks for slogging through this written version of deja vu. It helps to get this crap out of my head. Just wish I could get it out of my life.
Musings: It's All About Community
5 hours ago
Hi again Leslie. I am usually adverse to giving advice. That doesn't mean I always catch myself and re-express my thoughts as a point of view or opinion, but I try. In this case though I am offering some advice. Please, please, please stay conscious of thoughts of depression and deal appropriately with them. It is a very slippery slope to climb back up from.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure the "act first, ask for forgiveness later" line of reasoning is a good direction to be traveling in. It implies a transgression that needs pardoning. Just my opinion here, but I do not like letting the idea that you are doing something "bad" continuing.
And again just my perspective, but I think that the real root of your and Mrs L's problems are not that she does not where the line should be drawn but whether a line can even be drawn at all. It is bad enough being a passenger in the car and not knowing where you are headed, but realizing that the driver also does not know is going to be scary. And that is worse than simply not being in control (if that really is her thing). Not only is she not in control but apparently nobody is.
And that is enough of the amateur psychoanalysis for today. It is too early in the morning for deep thoughts. Take care Leslie, my thoughts are with you.
Good advice, Sophie. I deeply regret the act first statement. As it left my mouth, I knew it would blow up on me.
ReplyDeleteYour car metaphor is a good one. I'm not sure that I'm the one driving the car, but I'm sure not assisting with the navigation!
I'm going to go take my Zoloft right now.
Dear Leslie Ann,
ReplyDeleteYou mention "fresh start". You already know my views on that. You really must do everything you can to organize the best possibility of a fresh start.
A fresh start may not result in a great outcome, but if you do not make a full effort at it, you will feel more poorly than you should about a bad outcome.
Some of the discomfort from the whole "who is driving" and "where the hell are we going" thing stems from not knowing what the real price of not getting in the car in the first place is.
Those uncertainties will be easier to bear if the value of the journey is more clearly known.
Hard times. Much sympathy. High hopes yet...
Petra
Leslie,
ReplyDeleteI must say I agree with Sophie's very smart analysis. I felt I needed to add that I feel Mrs. L's therapist seems to be enabling her with that comment. I hardly think shaving your legs comes to close to abuse. So I will again voice the opinion that you two need to see a neutral counselor together. The dueling therapists are not working. I will ramble on more in an email. I hope the snow brings you some of the joy of the season.
Lynnd
Les
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with the many others who have said this two therapist things doesn't work. Not only that she needs to be seeing a therapist who understands TG issues, if she doesn't then it will always be skewed against that issue as many do not understand it.
As for pushing boundaries and knowing where to stop or where the line should be drawn, well...
I do not believe you will know what that is until you get there. I have constantly pushed my boundaries and keep taking it up ever so slowly and just when I think I want to settle, I then push it up one more. Now I thought I would have settled where I am, but I want more and I see the same in you.
It seems that many times we marry strong women who we give control too and then when we take some of it back after years of marriage they don't know how to respond. So not only are you taking back some control in the relationship, but you are also doing something she doesn't like. SO thats two things not one. In the end you will both have to decide what you want from the other and what you would really be willing to accept from the other. I would say be honest, but I can't be honest, in the end I know what I want and it does not coincide with what my wife wants. I try to compromise, and yet I know she will not like the end result.
I know the end result and I think you know your end result of where you are heading, we try to get there with the least amount of resistance, and in these instances it just doesn't work.
I want to just have the male me fade away while the female me fades in, well at some point others notice and then you have to regroup, or maybe you have gone as far as you are going to go and need to make that ultimate decision.
Anyway good luck...
B
I'm in agreement with Sophie on the "act first, ask for forgiveness later" remark. It does imply that you were doing something wrong, and only gave her ammunition to shoot back at you. It also reinforced her misguided notion, that she is being abused by you. Whether wittingly, or unwittingly, I think she has manipulated you, into having a guilty conscience, about your need to express your gender identity more authentically. Don't give into that. She is not your mommy, and you are not a bad little boy, who has done something you should be ashamed of.
ReplyDeleteI feel for you. This spinning round and round, but going nowhere, must make you dizzy.
Melissa XX
I think a therapist who can implies that taking control of your own body somehow equates to abuse of someone who doesn't like the changes can't be taken very seriously.
ReplyDeleteIf a woman, with one of those weird controlling husbands who insists on long hair ,goes out and cuts it, then apologizes when he mopes, is she an abuser? Laughable.
Actually her only mistake, and yours, is apologizing for something you really shouldn't feel sorry for.
So glad I have a therapist with a little common sense. It seems lacking in the field based on blog evidence.
Hmm, maybe I'm to quick to pass judgement on this therapist. She has been a big help to one transgender friend of mine, and has even written at least one hormone referral in the past. Clearly she must have at least some rudimentary understanding of trans issues. In that light, this abuse notion seems a bit paradoxical to me.
ReplyDeleteWhich makes me think of how filtered this story is. The therapist said something to Leslie's wife, who interpreted it to best suit her own perspective. Then she in turn told Leslie, based on her interpretation and recollection, and perhaps with just a touch of embellishment to strengthen the point. It's all hearsay.
Your wife's attitude is clear though. She still sees your needs as "bad beahavior", something innately wrong. As long as she feels she has a moral prerogative because her needs more "right" than yours, negotiations are going to be hard for you.
Which takes us back to what many have been saying the past few blogs. Individual therapy is not very useful for this kind of problem. Your therapist is probably great for your gender issues. Hers is probably great for her personal issues. But when it comes to joint issues, this system is really breaking down. :(
I really don't feel I need to add much of anything to the above, so I won't.
ReplyDeleteI've been hard at work on the house and enjoying the beginning of my Christmas break. I do hope your holiday break will be a much improved and possibly even joyous occasion for you and your family.
Reverting to your last post, I think you should call your sister-in-law and have a good heart to heart talk sometime when Mrs. L is unavailable. Seems like there's one woman in the family who cares about you both and can bring some sanity to the discussion. Then you should both go shopping at Goodwill for a few hours. LOL (with sister-in-law, not Mrs. L)
I'll still be around for a few days yet, so I'll probably post again, but if not, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
:o)
Sylvia
While I pretty much agree with everyone, especially the "dualing therapists" comments, I want to go in a completely different direction with this comment.
ReplyDeleteLeslie, it sounds like shaving your legs is becoming an obsession with you. It sounds like it is now way more than just a way to express the femme side of you. It sounds like it is now your way to rebel against Mrs. L.
As you know, with me it goes way beyond shaving the legs. You also know that I deal with my frustrations...obsessions...whatever...with my formula of a rigid daily routine which includes, among other things, insane exercise; primarily running and fast walking. It is just amazing what endorphins can do for your frame of mind. And, your frame of mind is what concerns me right now.
As much as you and I have discussed our issues via private email, I have never asked you if you use this technique to keep your sanity. Do you?
Calie xxx
I've said it before..again and again: Be very skeptical and wary of stated alliances (Mrs L and the therapist). People never like to stand alone and tend to claim alliances that may or may not exist to support their point of view. Without speaking with said therapist directly, one cannot determine the authenticity of her statements. Desperate people will use exaggerations, half truths and down right lies. Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see. Good luck finding the truth.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm hearing from you sounds like Mrs L is bent on controlling you and micromanaging your life. This could be based on fear of you changing into someone she can't live with, or perhaps it is innate as part of her personality to control everything and everyone around her. She seems to always have a foe or villain that she is at war with. I know we all have life battles but is she thriving on them? Maybe even creating them? I dunno, I just see one little part of the big picture.
Wish you the best girl,
Peace Out,
Tina
Great bunch of comments, y'all! I have a lot of thinking to do. I'm off through the new year, so we'll have lots of quality time to mend fences or kill one another.
ReplyDelete@ Calie
Interesting notion. I'll think on it and get back to you.
What sentence can you expect for a crime of passion in the States?
ReplyDeleteMy advice is bits of the posts above, see if you can find them. Best of luck with Christmas!
Caroline XXX
I don't have any advice for you, but I do have two quotes that I quite like and wanted to share.
ReplyDelete"When you want something, something so true and pure, something that deep in your heart you know it's worth risking, then one must follow that path. But like any other path, there are obstacles, there are hardships, there will be sacrifices. One has to constantly question whether this path is worth traveling and how far along the path we must go... the choice is ours."
"If you bring out what is inside you, what is inside you will save you. If you fail to bring out what is inside you, what is inside you will destroy you."
Reading this post was hard. Lori reminded me indirectly I've not been here in a while, and I'm sorry about that.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to give you any advice but make a few general remarks, and share some of what I'm recovering from.
First off, the bit about enabling? Sounds like projection to me. Why should she care so much about hair? Seems like she cares more about your heat than your heart. Epic Fail! Hair will grow back, and probably pretty quickly, heart not so much.
She has a therapist, you have a therapist, do you have a couples therapist who can be objective and talk to both of your therapists?
I am regrettably a widow. We spent a decade together, and then three years fighting before he died while fighting to prevent the divorce action I filed. Why? Because his parents didn't want anything like that associated with their child. These people were powerful, violent, entitled, and dangerous. So much so that the process server who finally managed to get my husband served was physically assaulted by my Mother-in-law had to draw a weapon and point it at her. He happened to be an off duty sheriff who was legally entitled to carry a concealed side arm. SO while pointing a weapon at her head he calmly showed her his badge and said this is a one time offer. Have your child act like an adult and come and take this paperwork now, and I'll forget this bit of unpleasantness, or I'll arrest you for assault and resisting arrest and have a swat team come and serve the paperwork. You don't get to decide what's on it, or if I get to serve it, or even say boo. Walk away quietly right now but stay where I can see you and call the person these papers are being served on NOW, or explain to the neighbors why a swat team was here. PERIOD! She complied, and my husband was finally served. He called me up and said I know this is going to sound crazy, but when this goes to court, let me know, I'll be there to testify on your behalf.
Regrettably this was symptomatic of most of the rest of our time together. My husband and his parents had to be in control at all times, of all things, or it was hell on earth. I didn't truly appreciate how much danger I was in until they started repeatedly violating the restraining orders and stalking me.
I did everything I could for too many years to try and make them all happy, I too based my moods on his, and unless or until I was willing to surrender complete control to them, my life was hell on earth. I only wish I was exaggerating. Great example? My Mother-in-law had the Police sent after me one night years before the divorce. Why? Because I wasn't home waiting for Earl to come home.
Mind you he was three states away at her house and was going to be there for several more days, but I had to be right where they could keep tabs on me at all times. I happened to show up to find my house surrounded by armed men as they were preparing to break down the door. The very next day I was told to get a cell phone that only the three of them would have the number to. All because I stayed to long in a bookstore, and then stopped at a diner for some eggs. I only wish I was kidding.
continued...
...the rest:
ReplyDeleteWhen nothing I could do, no matter when I did it was right, and I had to ask my husband for a little emotional support and a hug once in a while I realized I was in deep trouble. I was so far from where I started that I didn't know how to get back, how we could. I started getting a bit more insistent about therapy, and the medical coverage we had at the time would cover it I figured they couldn't object.
Yeah, I was wrong there.
Long story short, he left me and started making serious war on me. Things got worse until I had to petition for protection under stalking laws. I had to start my life over in a way most people know only from the movies. He died three years after he left me, but that wasn't going to stop his parents from coming after me.
Why did he die? Because he refused to deal with his own health issues seriously. Plus his idiot mother thought she knew medicine better than those of us who really did. He wouldn't control it properly, so his health failed. Again he and his crazy parents thought they knew better and kept on doing all the things the medical team we'd put together said NOT to do. Why? Because they knew better. They had to have control even if it meant certain death.
I wish I was kidding.
Mind you this is one of the many reasons our relationship came apart. I was working way more than full time as the economy was dying, being a housewife and mom to his cat, being strong for him, serving as a full time medical staff for him doing dialysis at home (I wish I was kidding) and taking care of his IV medications, and staying on top of the latest research in the field.
But I couldn't do anything right. The abuse kept getting worse, "I love you" was something he said with no meaning and no feeling. He never looked at me the way he did when he was trying so hard to catch me. We couldn't talk about anything, because he'd always find SOMETHING to turn into a weapon against me. He did nothing to help out with even his own health care, let alone the house.
Yeah, I based my moods on his, danced every little gig he demanded, and couldn't do anything right. We got into a fight about birthday presents and such. I got in trouble for buying something for myself that he claimed he was going to get as a present for me. Of course that was used against me at every turn because I acted first and asked forgiveness later. Sound familiar?
You know what it was that I got in to so much trouble about? That made me public enemy number one and finally really destroyed my marriage?
I hope you're sitting down. Please, really, be sitting down when you read this next line.
A toothbrush.
Yes. Really. Admittedly a Sonicare Elite which I really needed to get to help take better care of my teeth and cut down on dentist bills. But I was evil because I acted first and asked forgiveness later. Still have the toothbrush mind you, and it's paid for itself several times over.
The husband, not so much.
I'm sorry you're still going through so much Leslie. I'm praying for all of you.