First off, what an amazing collection of comments on the last two entries. You ladies are aces with me. Melissa and Renee, I am tempted to lock you two in a chat room for the duration, but I do love you both. In fact, I love the lot of you. It's hard to fathom this many folks caring about one's situation. There are also numerous emails, and I intend to reply to them all, but your patience would be appreciated. I'm better at modeling secretary outfits than I am at typing.
On to the main event: therapy. It was a pretty somber session.
In the past, I have repeatedly found new stores of hope to mine. Not so much this time. When the shit hit the fan Monday, I was ready to walk. I was very upset through the afternoon. Co-workers were noticing. I had a great phone conversation with Lori, who helped to calm me. After that, I was more contemplative than angry. If I had written my post in the afternoon, it would have been blistering. Since Monday evening, I've been doing a lot of reflection, and that's where we went in therapy.
My therapist, M, was bewildered by the mixed messages, though not surprised that the bare legs were a bone of contention. I have no intention of backing down on the leg hair. I brought up the notion of an ultimatum, calling her out on the subject. Not in a harsh way, just making it very clear that this is precisely what I need to stay functionally sane. She can react however she pleases, but she needs to know just important this is to me. I feel like we could maintain the status quo for a long while if I have this.
Of course, I've been adamant with my wife before, and I've always backed down in the end. I told M that I'm now realizing that my wife is a bully. Yeah, I know, I know, but I had to see it for myself. Whereupon, M quietly added that she regards me as abused, a judgement that I think has been unspoken for a long time. That's a sobering thought. My wife is undoubtedly the dominant personality. My feelings get short shrift. I hesitate to embrace the idea of my wife emotionally abusing me, but it gives me a lot to consider.
Anyway, coming from a calm place today, I told M that I don't hold out much hope of this resolving. My take right now is that I need to create a plan for getting out. One day of being myself each month is wholly inadequate. I have no other opportunities to express myself fully. I'm not agitated about this, just sad. It just seems like I'm missing the solution somewhere. I've been struggling with my condition, and with her, for two years. I've carved out a tiny niche for myself, especially here in the blogosphere. I've grown bigger than this niche now, getting pot-bound. The Leslie part of me needs more space, more of a corporeal presence. I don't think I can get that concession.
Musings: It's All About Community
5 hours ago
Leslie Ann, I feel for you honey. I really do. I know what agony not being able to express yourself can cause. I won't try to predict where your particular path in life is going to lead you, but for mine I can't say it any better than Christine Daniels said in her "Coming Out" letter:
ReplyDelete"A transgender friend provided the best and simplest explanation I have heard: We are born with this, we fight it as long as we can, and in the end it wins.
I gave it as good a fight as I possibly could. I went more than 40 hard rounds with it. Eventually, though, you realize you are only fighting yourself and your happiness and your mental health -- a no-win situation any way you look at it.
When you reach the point when one gender causes heartache and unbearable discomfort, and the other brings more joy and fulfillment than you ever imagined possible, it shouldn't take two tons of bricks to fall in order to know what to do."
Very little in the way of advice, but by way of a tribute, I don't know if you know just how good a metaphor pot bound is.
ReplyDeleteWow. Thats a literary device made of pure deep-fried gold. I am deeply admiring of your ability to lightly and cleanly describe dark and messy things.
Keep working...
Nobody deserves to be shackled and chained (unless we get off on it, hehe!). Nobody deserves to be held in such a manner. This isn't a loving kind of holding, it's a controlling one.
ReplyDeleteBreak the shackles and chains. The gift of being yourself is something nobody has a right to take away. It's all we really have in this world.
I'm wishing you much strength and clarity in the days to come. I'll be here for you every step of the way.
xoxoxo
Wow, definitely a lot going on. In the end as everyone else has made reference too, are you happy over all. If you take the gender issue off the table is everything else good?
ReplyDeleteAs for your wife being the dominant, have you given that position to her, over the years have you let her rule the roost, if so it will take some time and fights to get it back. I have found though many of us are not the dominant and therefore it is hard as it doesn't feel right (like everything else).
Therapy, well one question I have and maybe you can't answer it, do you manipulate your therapist so that you hear what you want to hear. I ask as I so did this and really stretched and rearranged some of the facts so that she would say what I wanted to hear. I so think this goes on in many of our lives more than what is talked about.
I believe that our group is above average intelligence and very creative, and the woman inside us if very very manipulative. You really have to watch what she does to get out and how the inner self manipulates what is going on in your real life.
I will throw this in, if you decide to leave, then have a good escape plan. Have all you need prepared. This takes time. If kids are at home don't do it around the holidays as you don't want to ruin christmas for them. Whatever decisions you make put them off till after the first of the year. Talk to some that have left and see what they shouldve done and then just prepare well. good luck
B
Wow, sobering indeed.
ReplyDeleteI see a lot of stuff flung around our community, on both sides of the fence, that if it were happening to me, I would consider it abusive. Only you can say for sure, as it pertains to you and your relationship. But whatever the case may be, you're definitely a survivor.
Eventually, though, "surviving" just doesn't seem like enough, huh?
I am no psychiatrist, but honestly, I think the idea that it's an abusive situation is a bit over the top. She only has the control you give her and no more. She is certainly not perfect.
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, her notion of a proper compromise is tainted by her belief that you are the one who needs to bend. It stems, she feels that her needs are "normal", and yours unhealthy, so hers take priority.
Also she does have a tendency to lash out verbally when you want to do something that she isn't comfortable with. I think that is pretty normal though.
When we are upset most of us like to vent, and often overstate our case. I don't think comments like the roommate comment are intended to be idle threats, but are instead more of an emotional release. She probably on some level felt that way in that moment.
It may not be the most mature way to deal with emotion, and it can be very hurtful. Still, I think it might be unfair to apply the word abusive?
I hope I haven't offended you with this thought. I've said this a lot. No one is really at fault. Two people with different needs and expectations form each other, who are both unable to concede, are going to
have friction.
At this point both your councilors are taking sides, hers making ridiculous assertions and suggesting unfair compromises. Yours suggesting abuse. That looks like the start down a slippery slope to me. I just suggest being mindful.
Wow, I should totally be going to work by now, but I just have to chime in again...
ReplyDeleteLeslie hasn't said that her relationship is abusive and unless she does, we're just tilting at windmills by debating whether it is or isn't. As someone who works with survivors of abuse, the number one rule I follow is that I don't get an opinion...it's entirely up to the survivor, because abuse is really about how one is made to feel, not so much how they were made to feel that way. So it might be okay to ask, "do you feel like you were abused?", but not okay to say, "you are being abused." And even worse to say, "you're not being abused...that's not what abuse looks like."
I don't know if her therapist was out of line or not...I'm an amateur crisis counselor, she is a professional, so I'll just not go there.
Bottom line for me: Leslie hasn't said she is being abused and so my presumption is that she isn't.
I was going to post this anyway, once I had the time to properly research the sources, but Ms. Shandy's comment leads me right into it - thank you!
ReplyDeleteThe clinical definition of the word "abuse" as used by mental health professionals is one that has nuances that many are unaware of. Quoting from this article, which caused a great deal of controversy when it first appeared on the internet:
"Nowhere is this more evident than in current definitions of what constitutes abuse. ... The definition now includes emotional, mental, psychological, verbal and financial abuse as well as sexual and physical."
"Emotional abuse is perhaps the vaguest of the list of what constitutes abuse. How do you define it? Is there some yardstick that one can use to verify that yes indeed, hubby has stepped beyond the line, again? This is a particular problem with A.S. men. They are emotionally abusive because they neglect or ignore the feelings of their partners. This neglect, if true, stems from the fact that they are not aware of them."
"The fact that an Asperger person may not intend their behaviour to be abusive does not make it feel less abusive for the person on the receiving end, whether they have Aspergers or not. If an Asperger person is asked whether they are abusing their family and they are, they are likely to say no because they do not have cognition of it."
"What Ms Wall is saying is not just that an A.S. person can be abusive, but that they do not have to have a motive, or be aware of it and they can still be considered abusive. Damned if you do and damned if you don't!"
"The A.S. in this scenario cannot win. He can inadvertently hurt your feelings, by accident or just by doing nothing, and that is abuse. Whatever the partner wishes to call abuse is, ipso facto, abuse, and even knowing there was no intention to cause harm does not make a difference. "
Yes, I'm aware that this example refers to those with Aspergers, which is likely not the case here. However, the salient point is (S)he can inadvertently hurt your feelings, by accident or just by doing nothing, and that is abuse. Whatever the partner wishes to call abuse is, ipso facto, abuse, and even knowing there was no intention to cause harm does not make a difference.
I stand by my previous statement that I will not vilify Leslie's wife for any behavior she feels she needs to exhibit. That does not mean I deny there is clinical abuse in the relationship. My ex-spouse has argued that I abused them emotionally, as in the quoted example. I would never deny them the right to say that they felt abused.
As they tell us in conflict resolution, use "I" statements, not "you" statements.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my comments yesterday. That certainly wasn't my intention, and I apologize if I did. When I spoke of many women with a sense of entitlement, and little girls being indulged by their parents, I never meant all women and little girls, or even most, and I also never meant to imply that there aren't males who are spoiled as well. There are indeed, and I've known plenty of them in my life. My point was simply, that if one expects to be treated as an equal, then one has to be more egalitarian in their own attitude and deeds.
ReplyDeletePeace,
Melissa XX
Oh dear Leslie, what a mess. Do take things slow, get some you time and maybe get away for a few days so you can clear your head and think things through. Escape may be your best option, I'm not telling you not to, but do your home work as was suggested in some of the other posts.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time though, I think you can push harder on the wife if you're ready to throw in the towel so to speak. After all, what's going to happen if you push more that's worse than the contemplated escape? About the only thing I can think of is a premature separation prior to your full planning of escape.
On the abuse front, I'll have to go with - it's up to you {do you feel abused?} From what little I know I would say you are used and cornered, but I do think you've not tried very hard to change that. {Sorry girl, I mean no offense, honesty can hurt.} I know you are like me in a lot of ways and don't want the confrontation. But being a slave to your wife's need for a wholly masculine fulfillment of her ideal hubby is only going to cause you unending angst.
I think the longest lasting marriages last because the partners find ways to work out their differences and love each other enough to sacrifice for each other. One sided sacrifice only creates misery for one and no need to change for the other. It's the classic unequally yoked analogy and all you'll end up doing is going in circles. You gotta stop pulling so hard on the yoke and see if she'll step up one of these days. If not, then maybe it is time to find another yoke.
I weep for you though, do be careful.
Your Friend,
Sylvia
It seems to me the healthy decision for both of you is to end your marriage.
ReplyDeleteI know if I was in your wife's situation I would be very confused and angry and I would feel cheated. When you marry a man that's kinda what you expect to get- and then it turns out he like's to be a girl too. You just don't consider that something like that will happen to you, and when it does you freak out.
I see your side too though, you marry a person for who they are, because love is meant to conquer all and it must be awful for her not to accept you as YOU are.
Anyway, I wish you well.
@Renee My comment is in reference to the statement "Whereupon, M quietly added that she regards me as abused, a judgement that I think has been unspoken for a long time. That's a sobering thought." Given that her therapist has suggested the possibility of abuse, and that Leslie considers the comment sobering, opinions on abuse seem relevant.
ReplyDelete@Sonora Sage I am aware that the definition of abuse is pretty broad. Really, almost everyone has probably done something that would meet the definition of emotional abuse at some point, and there is some level of emotional abuse in almost any relationship, by such a broad definition. What varies is the degree. If someone occasionally engages you in psychological warfare and resorts to tactics that meet the broadest definition of emotional abuse, does that qualify someone as "abused"? Does it qualify the instigator as "abusive"?
Basically my point in a nutshell is that therapists are fallable and see things through a filter. They know the story from one side. Leslie's wife's therapist is hearing the story from another angle, and you can bet she has never told her client she is emotionally abusive.
Leslie is at a point where she has major decisions to make, and I think at this point, considering herself abused can really shift the balance toward leaving. It could turn into a justification to just walk away.
It is obviously Leslie's own place to decide whether or not she is being abused. Me, a therapist, or anyone else can have an opinion in the matter, but what matters is whether Leslie considers herself emotionally abused.
@ Ms. Shandy
ReplyDeleteI was just clarifying my position, which is that I don't have a position on the subject, except in support of Leslie's position. I think my comment just prior to that could be misconstrued in a certain way and I didn't want to contribute to taking this conversation down that road.
I guess I do think it's best to remain at arm's length when it comes to voicing opinions, and I advocate on behalf of that because I've seen firsthand what happens when uninvolved parties attempt to minimize a person's feelings about abuse. The truth is that there's enough of a stigma attached to the concept of "abuse" that people don't need to be told how serious an allegation it is. Abuse sufferers are often (and unfairly) seen as weak and defective by others (and frequently share in that viewpoint, because it does make you feel weak and defective), and knowing that perception exists keeps most people from throwing the term around lightly. But this is all just an exercise in talk because Leslie hasn't thrown it out there. My main message is really just to her, and that's that I'm here and I'm listening.
"Leslie hasn't said that her relationship is abusive and unless she does, we're just tilting at windmills by debating whether it is or isn't." With all due respect, accusing someone of tilting at windmills Quixote style seems to go beyond clarifying an opinion and feels more like an insult.
ReplyDeleteAs for my position, I will carry my own clarification no further then this comment. It is my last on the subject regardless of what follows.
In your original comment, you stated that Leslie has not said she is abused. In your most recent comment, you state that it is best not to minimize the feelings of someone who feels abused.
My intent is not to minimize anyone's feelings, since as you stated, Leslie never personally said she was abused, but rather that her therapist suggested it.
"I guess I do think it's best to remain at arm's length when it comes to voicing opinions, and I advocate on behalf of that because I've seen firsthand what happens when uninvolved parties attempt to minimize a person's feelings about abuse."
Also, if you re-read my comment, you will find I never stated "Leslie is not abused". I stated that in my opinion it seems a stretch. I am entitled to my opinion, and to express it as well. I am not declaring that Leslie has not been abused, and she is of course free to make up her own mind on the subject.
This blog has always welcomed opinions, as far as I can tell, and to that end, I have stated mine. Rather than let this turn from casual debate to something uncivil and less constructive, I commit to ending my discussion with this post.
@ Ms. Shandy
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree that my comments have been kind of confusing, in that they're sort of split between just being supportive of Leslie and offering advice from someone who has practical experience supporting people in tense (sometimes violent) domestic situations. The latter was perhaps unnecessary, but since we were talking about what is and isn't abuse, I thought it relevant to mention that it's exactly that sort of behavior - that everyone and their brother has a notion of what is and isn't abuse - that makes it really hard for abuse-sufferers to identify their own abuse and come forward. Again, perhaps an inappropriate topic for this particular blog and made more confusing by my own dueling agenda.
The "tilting at windmills" comment wasn't intended to be insulting, and if it was, I certainly included myself in that. I wasn't using the royal "we" when I wrote that...my initial comment helped start us down a road that wasn't really necessary. Sorry about the confusion.
I don't really expect a follow-up but if I can say this without sounding condescending, I've read a lot of your stuff, I know you and Leslie are close friends (well closer than she and I, anyway), and I thinks she's lucky for it. I probably minimized that in some way through my comments, and I'm sorry for that.