Roommates, eh? I'm gonna have to look up the definition.
In our big talk, my wife made it pretty clear that we would not be intimate again until I let my leg hair grow back in. I have no reason to doubt her resolve.
Many of you know that I am up late into the night. My wife frequently falls asleep in a recliner, then I roust her into the bedroom when I retire. That was the case last night. When we were settled, she told me to move over toward her. "Don't you want to get warm?" Well, I don't know... "Oh, just be pragmatic."
The question I wanted to ask was whether this is standard behavior for roommates. We wrapped up together, her legs on mine, and we went to sleep spooning. What am I to think? That she still loves me? I was just going to claim my half of the bed and sleep in her proximity. Is her anger and frustration as narrowly focused as this makes it seem? Happily, Thursday is therapy day for me. There is much interpretation to be done.
Her words and her actions are completely at odds from my viewpoint. I still haven't learned the subtleties of feminine thinking despite my sincere efforts. Maybe this all makes sense to her. I'm just confused by it all.
Incidentally, I am maintaining the epilation. I am completely bare nearly to the top of my thigh. I will probably not take it much further, but I won't be letting up anytime soon either. Smooth legs are amazing, and epilation keeps the sensation alive for much longer than shaving. I am totally sold.
A wood and two roads
11 hours ago
Roommates don't spoon, not even to stay warm. In fact, they generally have separate beds, and even separate rooms.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you'll have the opportunity for a therapist to give his or her input on this. I think you've got us all pretty stumped. My only crummy advice, if I can use your own graham cracker metaphor, is that you continue to somehow find within you the patience needed to keep the frustration from blowing up into unvented anger.
People are complicated and contradictory. Sometimes our needs or desires outweigh our willingness to stick to our guns or live up to our promises. She probably knows how mixed up all of this is, but she may not understand it much better than you do.
ReplyDeleteStill, whether she intends to send mixed messages or not, they can be awfully distressing. Hopefully your therapist can offer you some solace.
been there, done that. My take on it is that she still loves you a great deal and the whole epilating while it disturbs her can be overlooked for her own needs. When I was in this, I capitalized on it, moved in close, and then used it against her later to show her how selfish she is.
ReplyDeleteHer fear or at least my wifes is that I would continue to take more and more, which I did. I don't think its the actual act, but what is behind it and what it represents that causes her difficulty.
I have more, but therapy should give just as much insight. good luck.
B
Your instincts seem to have been pretty accurate so far, but it must be awfully frustrating for you to keep receiving all of these mixed signals from her. Is she fickle, or is she just passive aggressive, and manipulative? Neither one is good. Joint therapy with an independent therapist might help save your marriage. Barring that, I don't see much hope of things ever changing for the good. Marriages are worth fighting for up to a point, but not if you have to give up who you are, simply because your spouse refuses to deal with it.
ReplyDeleteI know I am walking on eggshells with some here, but something that many seem afraid to discuss, is the often incredible sense of entitlement, that many genetic women in western societies seem to have, vis-à-vis their relationships with males, that stems from the indulgent way that little girls are often raised by both their mothers and fathers. There is definitely a double standard here. They can't have their cake an eat it too. If they truly want equality, as any self-respecting person would, then they have a responsibility to learn to give and take on an equal basis.
I wish you luck, Leslie. I'm afraid you are going to need it.
Melissa XX
Having lived through exactly this same situation, I tend to agree with Renee. She is angry that you are epilating, possibly actually turned off by it, afraid it will lead to more, afraid of losing you... and thus lashing out with roommate comments and such. It's all very normal, actually. Stripping away all the BS, she still loves and needs you - thus the spooning. My ex (who I might mention did not love me, and was simply afraid of losing the lifestyle she was accustomed to) actually came full circle and "embraced" my transition, at least on the surface. But that's another story for a different blog haha.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that you should try to listen to her, understand her love and fears, talk to your therapist... and see what happens. Obviously, she loves you. Only time will tell if that's enough...
Leslie,
ReplyDeleteYou know I usually don't comment, but I had to comment on the subtleties of feminine thinking. As you know I am a genetic girl...I don't understand it either, I think at times it is hopeless (lol). I think your wife might be confused by her own thoughts and feelings too. It does seem like a more neutral therapist might be more helpful, one you speak to together. You both seem pained, which in my humble opinion shows that you both love each other. Don't give up yet, divorce is harder than you think, especially with kids. However, separate therapists are not going to get you to come together.
You mentioned the other day that your wife feels like she has no one to talk to about this. You also mentioned that your brother seems okay with your gender(s). Would they be willing to talk to each other? You could certainly send her my way, our situations are not exactly the same, but you know I have a positive attitude toward smooth legs, lol.
Now I can't believe I am going to do this...
@Melissa,
I know we have not formally met, but you did crack my delicate genetic woman egg. If you have seen my cake (which would be chocolate with chocolate frosting) please save me a piece, I would like to eat it.
"the often incredible sense of entitlement, that many genetic women in western societies seem to have, vis-à-vis their relationships with males, that stems from the indulgent way that little girls are often raised by both their mothers and fathers." There are just as many boys raised this way. And it is no fun being a genetic woman, married to a genetic man whose mother let him believe he is the center of the universe that can do no wrong and should be waited on by his wife. Oops, I guess I am still a little resentful, but you get my point I hope.
Take care Leslie, drop me a note anytime.
I shall display my naive ignorance of all things sexual as i have no idea what spooning is. (Unless maybe it involves a soup bowl - LOL)
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with later commentators who suggest that your wife is confused. I wonder too if she might be fishing to see where you are with the relationship? Aka, she could be confused about your intentions, though I think she's certainly confused about her own. Aren't we all at times?
Further, I agree that you need a mutual councilor. You'll never find a middle ground unless you find some way to bring your respective positions together. Somehow I don't think councilors who don't know where the other spouse is coming from will be as much help as one who does. Even if you go separately for a while and only occasionally together.
good luck Leslie,
Sincerely,
Sylvia
This is a period of huge change for you both. It is also a confusing time for both parties.
ReplyDeleteWe need to give ourselves some slack as well as our partners.
Change takes time and acceptance of change also takes time.
I think there is hope.
Stick by your guns on your shaving but push the enveope slowly if you can.
I think your wife wants to find a way to make this work but is scared.
Keep the communication open.
x
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteA couple things...
ReplyDelete@ Melissa
I think maybe I'm one of those eggshell people. I think your comment is interesting, if radically over-simplified. There's a whole lot wrong with the way both men and women are raised in our society, and that's a totally interesting conversation to have at some point perhaps, but this isn't the forum for it. In general, I'll just say that women haven't been handed much of anything, ever, and a lot of what we do have right now we had to fight hard for. I can't say whether Leslie's wife feels any sense of entitlement or not (although it's a totally reasonable way for her to feel...I don't want the man I'm dating to actually be a woman either), but a woman sticking up for her own wants and needs seems totally valid to me. We've all had to do that at some point.
And it's so similar to the trans experience, where almost no one is ever willing to step up to the plate to help, I can't see how we fail to recognize it as such and empathize.
That said, I think you can empathize with someone and still move in a direction counter to what they want. The trans community can take so many cues from the feminist movement, and they all ring true to me. "Biology isn't destiny," is my favorite. Leslie sometimes talks about control over "my own body," which is exactly the refrain of the pro-choice movement. We really do understand each other, or we would if we took a moment to think about it, but all of that stuff starts to fall apart when it's not just politics any more, but your family and your life.
@ lynnd...awesome, awesome comment.
@ Rebecca...agree completely. And would love to hear the story about your spouse sometime.
@ bree...(snark)God yes, our wives are so selfish! I can't believe them.(/snark)
Finally, a word about marriage counselors...
Marriage counselors are great for some things. They are not so great for others. While training as a domestic violence crisis counselor, we were advised not to recommend marriage counseling to couples. The reason: Marriage counselors work to help you find common ground, but they do so through the arrangement of compromise and admission of mutual liability in the relationship. Or at least, a good many of them do. So yes, there are a lot of problems they can help you work through, and maybe this is one of them. But I'm always suspicious because gender identity issues don't often lend themselves well to compromise. That doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a whirl - why not exhaust all possibilities, right? - I'm just throwing this out because the marriage counselor process has its limitations.
Well, if the rest of the cisfemale readership is jumping in here ... ;-)
ReplyDeleteThere's lots of explanations, and the situation you describe, Leslie, is one I've seen before (though not in my own relationship).
Maybe it's just habit. Anger is hard to sustain over time, and perhaps her mind just "forgot" and she slipped back into the comfort zone of her usual behavior.
Maybe she's trying to be the leader in concilliatory/compromising behaviors. She might hope you think "Well, she's being nice again, so I'll be nice again and stop the slippery slope progress".
Maybe she's suddenly scared that you will leave because being roommates is not enough for you, and so she's showing you what you'd be leaving behind.
Maybe intellectually, she knows where her boundaries are, but emotionally has trouble enforcing them. This is a very common phenomenon in relationships, and can lead to even more confusing behavior such as anger or sadness following intimacy because the boundaries were breached.
Most likely, as many have said, she's as confused as you are. Mixed messages are not nice for the receiver but sometimes they're unavoidable. I doubt she's doing it to be deliberately hurtful.
Oh, and Melissa? OUCH. Wanting to have one's cake and eat it too may be a symptom of a spoiled childhood, but I don't believe it's gendered behavior. Spouses take advantage of their partner's devotion all the time, on both sides. Sometimes all it takes is a lightbulb to go on for the partner to recognize this for the abuse it is, and love flies out the window. Those are the relationships that are better off left behind, but sadly the ones where the split is rarely amicable.
None of us really know Leslie's wife, except through the lens of her writing. As someone who has been the "victim" of my ex-spouse's blog posts myself, I am not going to point fingers, cast blame or predict outcomes. Therapy may help. What helps most of all, I've found, is seeing your spouse as a Real Person, with human flaws and frailties just like yours. Putting your spouse on a pedestal ("She's a wonderful, devoted wife and mother who would sacrifice herself for me and the family") or tearing her down ("She's a selfish person who is only interested in her own physical gratification") are simply pointless extremes of thought that paint her as a two-dimensional caricature.
Okay, off my soapbox now!